No blog is complete without some good confession of sin, so that was mine.
Ok so we went and I prayed much before going and asked the lord to convict me of my self righteous feelings toward the church and help me to have love for the people there and especially for the pastor who I had currently
Here is my forward. For Christians, whether or not something is "weird" should never be a basis for whether or not something is true. Like just the fact that something is out of my comfort zone, isn't automatically proof that it must be false and from the devil. Because we test things according to scripture not according to what we're comfortable with. Because really, Christians are weird. One of the foundational elements of our faith is that God chose to impregnate a 14 year old virgin so that she could give birth to his son, also being God, in a barn full of farm animals. Thats really weird, but to us who believe and understand it, its so completely beautiful. So as a Christian who has the Holy Spirit living inside me, then wherever scripture is being taught accurately and the Holy Spirit is truly present is where I should feel comfortable. If thats in a place where people are laying hands on everybody and women are twirling around on stage with banners, then thats my new comfort zone. Congratulations to me. Or if thats with my dressed up little butt on a hard wooden pew listening to nothing but an organ, then hallelujiah to that as well and may our own selfishness and pride not get in the way of opportunities to worship just because its not our"style". So up front I will just say that my overall conclusion of the church has nothing to do with the fact that it is very "different" in how its set up. But my conclusion does have everything to do with scripture and the fact that they did not adhere to it.
Alright so really not all that interested in giving you a play by play of what went on in the service and then the verse that negates it (bunch of people speaking in tongues at once with no interperter; read 1 corinthians 14 etc.) but I will give you the overall conclusion of why I am now finally convinced that Bethel is not just a matter of "yeah they're a little weird, but pretty close on most things so whatever". They are preaching an entirely different gospel. To which Paul would say anyone who preaches another gospel should be accursed. Different gospel=different team. And the thing that kills me. The thing that made it to where I could hardly stand to stay in the building one second longer is the thought of all the heartbreak these people will have and probably do have as a result of the frustration felt when God is not fulfilling promises that he never actually promised. God never promised He would make you have lots of money or be without sickness. In fact we worship a homeless man who was murdered. A man who told his followers that they would be without homes and would endure much suffering for his sake.
And so I am standing there looking at all these people. So many beautiful people, many of whom probably truly love the lord and want to follow him, but they are told that that means something that it doesnt. And they're being led to believe that if they could just muster up enough faith then their lives could finally be whole. When in reality all they need for their lives to be whole is the gospel. But the gospel wasn't taught there. No mention of it was made at all. Several people got "healed" of various problems. But no mention of Christ. And the problem with that, is that even if little johnny goes home and he's no longer cross-eyed, if he gets killed in a car crash, he still doesn't know Jesus.
And without the gospel nothing else matters. We have to believe that it is enough. And anything that teaches the gospel plus something, is not the gospel and should therefore be extremely guarded against.
In one way i'm very relieved to hear that my conclusions about Bethel are not just mine but others as well. I'm, at the same time, very saddened by the many people who faith has been shipwrecked by false doctrine & many who may never hear the true gospel because they started at Bethel & were never told it. Overriding all of this is a total agreement for myself regarding your confession of sin & self righteousness. I have to remember that Christ died to set me free from myself, not to make me the best me I can be. If not for him I would suck. I do suck,but think how bad I would be without Him!
ReplyDeleteI agree wholeheartedly. Very well written, in love and truth. My heart breaks as well.
ReplyDeleteAgreed. They aren't preaching the Gospel. People are not meeting Jesus. I am really glad we went.
ReplyDeleteThe author of this BLOG makes some major no-no mistakes statements that are made as a fact. We are commanded to make judgments on the following areas and from what I am reading, the author lacks a lot to make her statements.
ReplyDelete1) We are to test all spirits, and we do this with what they say about Jesus, is He Christ or not (study 1 John 4).
2) We are to test doctrine. Does the doctrine match with the whole unity of what is declared in Scripture or not. The author fails to do this. She takes one single verse (and out of context might I add) and says this church fits the context of what Paul was speaking of in Galatians (which what she says of the church, it does not fit the context of the verse she is quoting).
3) We are to test their fruit. What kind of fruit is produced in the lives of the people that attend Bethel Church? Do they produce the fruit of the flesh or the fruit of the Spirit (see Galatians 5)? Do the people you know that attend Bethel have the fruit of the Spirit in their lives or the fruit of the flesh? Are they known for their love and generosity or their hatred and abuse? You can also read this verse and ask is the church working in the harvest field.
Can you actually state with ALL certainty, beyond a shadow of doubt, that this church DOES NOT preach the Gospel after only one single visit? Can you make the statement as a fact of truth that the church does not perform any form of outreach, does not share Jesus Christ, that their doctrinal statement of faith is heresy, and they are preaching another Gospel with only ONE SINGLE visit to the church? Are you telling me as a fact the pastor is a heretic because you have listened to only one of his sermons and have gone through all the hermeneutics required to determine something is heresy? Are you saying you spoke with the pastor to make sure you clearly understand why he says what he says that confirmed he was a heretic. Are you telling me that as a fact of truth you are in fact better than these people?
OR
are you simply telling me, before you walked through the doors of this church you already had your mind made up? Are you telling me you already had an opinion about the church and basically saw what you wanted to see? Are you really basically telling me you, admittedly have a ton of your own issues that you need grace for as does the whole world?
@MissionaryBoy85 I think your brief "or" statement at the end is spot on. In fact the author actually says almost those exact same things toward the beginning of the blog (which apparently you missed during your reading). I have a couple issues with your comment. First of all, how did she use Scripture out of context & what is the proper context? Please explain. Also, what does it matter if she has talked to the pastor? A pastor has a responsibility & biblical expectation to rightly divide the Word. If he needs to spend personal time with people after sermons in order to explain what he meant then maybe he needs to get a new job. Also, I happen to know that the author regularly listens to the podcast & therefore has a fairly good idea of what the overall teachings of this "church" are. I guess what I'm saying is that you didn't pay attention to what you were reading, assumed what it was saying, misunderstood it's scope & are trying to defend a "church" that fails many scriptural tests. P.S. I encourage you to rethink your profile name & become a missionaryMAN
ReplyDeleteFirst I will say I am very familiar with the church she mentions in this blog. I know many, many, many people there. The misgivings I have with the church have nothing to do with their doctrine and this isn't the appropriate forum for me to go into those misgivings. Actually, I can say on several of my visits I have seen altar calls at this church with many hundreds coming to Christ. So the statements that this church does not preach the cross, does not preach the Gospel, does not preach Christ and Him crucified, Christ buried, Christ raised from the dead, Christ coming again would be simply absurd. Now whether they have an altar call every service I don't know, and I am personally not sure there is a Scriptural responsibility to have one at all, as it is not necessarily biblical to even have altar calls. Useful man made invention often accredited to Charles Finney. Its not anti-biblical to have them, but it def is not required in Scripture. I can also testify that Paul preached the Gospel, but also said this in Hebrews 5:12-6:3: "For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this we will do if God permits."
ReplyDeleteScriptural context misuse:
1) The Scriptural context for Paul saying that they were preaching another Gospel has nothing to do with whether you preach about miracles or not, has nothing to do with wether they are Pentecostal church or not, and has absolutely nothing to do with whether they had an altar call or not. The context is Paul is speaking to the Galatian church about falling into the law and allowing someone to preach law of Moses versus Christ and Him crucified. The entire book of Galtians is a thesis not on whether they had an altar call or not, it had to do with are they forcing you through their teaching to lean on your own works, versus the work of the cross. Because the book of Galatians is sooo specific about its topic, alot of what is written there is often taken out of context, and this girl does misquote the Scripture out of context here. Unless Bethel Church is teaching everyone getting saved needs to get circumcised, she is misquoting Scripture. It might have been better to quote 1 Corinthians, but that would simply mean the church was out of order, not preaching another Gospel (meaning it isn't categorized as sin, but something that simply needs better structure).
@FutureMissionaryMan I'm not even sure where this idea of "altar calls" is coming from. She didn't even mention that in her blog. I honestly doubt that this little repartee will take us to a healthy Gospel place. In that spirit let me say that I'm sorry if I offended you & hopefully we will meet some day & have a cup of coffee to talk about it. Peace & Rest, Nick.
ReplyDelete@Missionaryboy, thank you for your desire to keep things in line with your view of scripture, however I think you are misunderstanding what I was saying on a few key issues. Which is fair, because I'll admit this blog was initially intended for an audience of people that know me and most of whom already have a greater context for me and my relationship with bethel and so I wasn't as detailed as I could have been. Perhaps thats irresponsible blogging on my part, but it is what it is. That being said, Nick is correct that I've listened to many of their sermons via podcast and have actually visited the church another time before this but didn't feel inclined to mention it since I was with another friend and we had to leave in the middle of the service. Also I've had extensive conversations with many people, both of whom went there and then left, as well as those who still attend. And in addition to all of that (and Im fully aware that this is a small detail) I have been following pastor bill johnson's twitter updates and have seen several that gave me great reason to be skeptical (i.e. why did Jesus raise people from the dead? Because not everyone dies in God's timing-BJM). And lastly because of the care I have for my friends there I have done a vast amount of research on both sides about what they teach and where it comes from. And I will tell you that I honestly did not have a predetermination to find bethel to be wrong or offbase.
ReplyDeleteIn fact nothing excites me more than the possibility that someday all of the dry, cynical, doctrinally based "fundamentalists" would come together with the beautiful, gifted, and faith-filled people of bethel and create a unity where we could each learn from each other in the areas we struggle with. Because knowing all the right doctrine but not having love is just as bad if not worse than loving everybody but with misguided intentions.
So, I'll wrap this mini blog up, by saying, those are all my qualifiers, but none of that is scripture. And so I will say that my entire basis for saying that bethel teaches another gospel, has little to do with the fact that there was no gospel preached just that one night, but rather its that the gospel that was preached was false. And like I said, they may teach that Christ died, was buried, and rose again, but then when they add to it that he did those things to purchase good health and prosperity for our lives, thats where its stops being the gospel and starts being something else. Which is what I meant by the galatians reference.
Hope that cleared some stuff up
This blog was very interesting to me. Though I don't know the author, and only came to read this through a mutual friend, I can see the sincerity in preparation before attending the service at Bethel. Author: You seem like a very strong, sincere woman of God and I commend you for that. I can read in your blog that you are not trying to attack anyone, but instead bring light to this situation, and deeply care for the people involved in this.
ReplyDeleteI have had my own experiences with Bethel, among other churches, and I can say this: There are many people that go there that love the Lord with all there heart, but like you said, Different gospel=different team. The bible is very clear on adding to the doctrine or taking away.. I find it very odd at the fact that they don't mention the gospel even once. Like I said, I'm not just going off your experience, as I have attended services there myself. (And I don't feel that the pastor should have to explain himself on that..) I have seen this happen before in other churches, and it's inevitable. Once you start to veer away from the truth, lines become cloudy, and things start to sound "similar" to what the truth is. I'm not bashing anyone in this, just saying be careful. God warns us about all of this, and there will be strict punishment. I know some very amazing people that have attended Bethel, and all I can say to them is this: Be certain that what you believe is truth, be sure of who you are following is Jesus, make sure that it's what God is saying and not man.
@realdeal, very well said. Theres some fantastic people that go there, but there still needs to be much discernment.
ReplyDelete